August 8, 2011
Self-Esteem, Revisited 46
I thought I would post a follow up to the article I wrote last week on self-esteem, because I got a couple of comments that I felt brought up some interesting points, both “pro” and “con” towards A.A.’s approach to “ego-deflation” and how it relates to self-esteem.
Within the confines of human psychology, self-esteem is of critical importance to mental health and an appropriate relationship to society in general. However, within the minds of those of us who have been touched by addictions, we tend to be “bi-polar” in the extremes of self-esteem. We go from having almost no respect for ourselves to, at the same time, being so egotistical that we feel that our way is the only way of living and it is the rest of the world that is “screwed up.”
I think ego-deflation is an important step but it needs to be handled carefully, because taken to the extreme — as it is in many Alcoholics Anonymous groups around the country — ego-deflation sets up a cycle of over-dependence on the A.A. group for the long term. This, I feel, is missing the point if our goal is to reach a level of stable sobriety. Stable sobriety, in my definition, is one that literally builds upon itself. In time, the goal should be to build a personal system of sobriety that isn’t answerable to the group, but is answerable to ourselves.
In many cases it seems that we are trading one addiction for another (Drugs & Alcohol for A.A.), and while I agree A.A. is a much safer alternative to drugs and alcohol, from a psychological viewpoint, it does almost nothing to produce “self-actualized,” autonomous, adults that can take care of themselves.
The goal, as I see it, is to reintegrate people who are trying to rebuild their lives back into society as a whole. So, if the individual is not open to the idea of God as a Higher Power, then maybe he or she will accept Society as a higher power (maybe a better way to define it would be “higher authority”).
The basis for ego-deflation, as I see it, is to admit to ourselves that our past way of going about this business of life led us to nothing but addictions and misery. In order to move forward at this stage of our lives, we have to admit and accept that we need to find a new way of doing things. If the client/sponsee cannot accept the spiritual side of the 12 Step Program, that is perfectly okay. All that needs to be accepted is that their old way of doing things did nothing but land them in rehab and/or A.A. and it is time for a fundamental change.
The one area in which 12 Step programs excel, is in the provision of a safe “transitional” society in which to belong. Whether you believe in the validity of the 12 Steps or not, the provision of a community in which to belong, is something that I cannot match in the one-on-one counseling environment. Having come from a history of addictions myself, I fully understand that the one thing I lacked more than anything else, was the necessary Social Skills needed to survive in modern society; the A.A. community provided a safe place to get used to being in a society again.
Something that we tend to forget is that the people who go to rehab and then to voluntarily to A.A., have already experienced ego-deflation and are looking for help in rebuilding their lives. But when we insist that they go through ego-deflation again, it is almost as if we are rubbing their noses in it and adding to an almost dangerous lack of self-esteem. I sometimes wonder how many relapses the recovery community is responsible for? Once we begin building self-esteem, self-respect will follow; once self-respect begins to grow, respect for others will follow naturally.






Aug 08, 2011 @ 04:02:44
Very insightful, thank you.
Aug 08, 2011 @ 05:59:15
I agree with many of your points, however, I must strongly disagree with this concept:
‘The one area in which 12 Step programs excel, is in the provision of a safe “transitional” society in which to belong’
This is simply not the case. We have compiled dozens if not hundreds of examples of assaults, rapes, swindles, child molestations, and even murders that have occured through predatory criminals in the AA rooms. Here is the documentation:
http://stinkin-thinkin.com/keep-coming-back/
AA likes to promote and market itself as a helpful organization, with such slogans as ‘one drunk helping another’ however, in reality it is the umbilical cord of the 20 billion dollar recovery industry.
We have people working very hard to stop this madness, and are continuing to promote the dangers of AA. Here is one of our more outspoken members blog.
http://stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com/
Oct 14, 2011 @ 08:16:31
Decon- Thanks for posting. It’s absurd. AA is just not safe. my binder in 2 inches thick with stories of rape , molestation and murder. ANd ALL I wanted to address was 13 stepping! The problem is very deep and very sick. And the woman cover it up in a way that is DISGUSTING! After 36 I left. I am free. I am so happy!
Aug 08, 2011 @ 17:37:02
Dude, must you spam virtually every post made here with your agenda? You don’t like 12-step programs. We get it. Guess what? Nobody is claiming they work for everybody. But they do work for many. Your mileage may vary. If you found success in Rational Recovery, great. ( I personally did not. But, you don’t see me on RR websites preaching about AA.)
Thanks for your opinion. But it’s unnecessary to take issue time after time with stuff people say here. What didn’t work for you may work for someone else; what worked for you may not work for someone else. There are numerous paths to sobriety.
Aug 09, 2011 @ 18:45:38
I agree with Deconstructor.
People need to know about the dangers of getting involved with 12-step cults.
Your claim that nobody is claiming they work for everybody is just wrong. AA members routinely discourage newcomers from seeking out alternatives… AA is presented to newcomers as the only way to get sober.
Most of the people who go to AA desperately seeking an answer wind up confused and lost when AA’s faith healing program doesn’t work.
People need to know the truth, and the truth is that AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.
It doesn’t work… period.
Aug 09, 2011 @ 22:43:21
I agree with Decon!
Aug 09, 2011 @ 16:03:24
Please…. Think before you post such propaganda. Rapes and child molestations occur in schools,churches, camps and in just about every venue one can name. Minister’s, school teachers, priests, neighbors, corporate CEO’s make up the list of human beings capable of those crimes as well. Predatory criminals abound- outside of the rooms of AA. People will be people no matter where you choose to go. If you are truly attempting to defame AA and help others with your resources that you market so freely on these pages, I fear you are only shooting yourself in the foot. It is your “madness” that is beginning to look rather biased and cult like, not the recovery community. If your way works for some, what a blessing… If AA works for others… that is a blessing as well. If you are sincere about spreading your word, I know there are far more marketable places than this miniscule blog where you can spread the word! It’s just coming off as bigoted and mean-spirited. I’m sure you don’t mean it that way….
Aug 09, 2011 @ 22:34:35
Sure rapes, murders and molestations happen in the world as you mention , however, the Church has been sued for negligence, schools have rules about background checks and reporting abuse to authorities as well. Schools have “RULES” to make sure they are not hiding under some pretend anonymity clause like AA does. Pretending they are above the law as seen in the recent Murder in Maine case. Boy Scouts and the Big Brother-Big Sisters of America have protocols for requirement of background checks. Even Al Anon and Ala teen have serious rules and regulations to protect minors now after being sued many times.
I am curious as to why anyone would be against making these same rules apply for AA, it’s meetings and it’s conventions. Why would anyone not want it to be safe when it is clearly not safe.
I have heard the stories first hand. I know the woman once molested by sober men. I know the woman grabbed and raped by AA sober men. I know the men scammed by long time sober men using their years of sobriety as a bat to swing with. Why would anyone want to cover up such sick behavior?
Oh my, this would give AA a bad name. A real name. A truthful name.
Did you know that the courts are sending 3rd level sex offenders and violent criminals to AA meetings as part of their plea bargains? This knowledge is not known to it’s genuine good members. This is not on the aa.org front page website.
This is not explained on The Betty Ford Rehab website or does any other rehab or treatment center tell it’s clients that they might be sitting next to such a violent offender who has no desire to ever be an AA member.
Aug 09, 2011 @ 18:14:32
As far as I know, all adults who work with vulnerable people in schools, youth groups, Churches and all other venues have to be vetted. Not in AA. It is the only place that predators can operate without being idenfified. No wonder there are so many rapes and murders. http://stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com/
Aug 09, 2011 @ 18:45:21
It is true that AA has worked for many people afflicted with Alcoholism and it should not be denied from them. Unfortunately when any group of people get together there will be a criminal element who attempt to use the group for their own purposes. Care and safety should always be practiced in any activity where people congregate such as churches, malls, restaurants and grocery stores because the criminal element may be present.
Human nature usually lets people drop their guard when they are in certain surroundings such as a church or school and in today’s society that can be a recipe for disaster. Predators have and still do operate in churches and schools which can be evidenced by recent and past news reports. The main differences with these actions happening in AA verses a church or school is the problems that legal authorities have with stopping and bringing to justice the predators in AA because of the code of Anonymity that AA has surrounded itself with.
I am not sure what the answer is to prevent predators from using the Anonymity that AA allows them, but I do know that churches and schools are taking actions to prevent disaster because the perpetrators are not Anonymous and the actions of these people are reported in the news to warn other people what can happen. While it is true that churches and schools have these problems and they will most likely continue, these entities are taking action to prevent further occurrences. How can we make AA as safe as a church or school without this accountability?
Aug 09, 2011 @ 19:01:41
Many people who struggle with addiction have low self esteem.
The last thing that these poor people need is to have their egos deflated further.
Who made the rule that…
“WE tend to be “bi-polar” in the extremes of self-esteem. We go from having almost no respect for ourselves to, at the same time, being so egotistical that we feel that our way is the only way of living and it is the rest of the world that is “screwed up.””
Where does this stuff come from?
Aug 09, 2011 @ 19:55:26
Nicely reasoned article. I agree overdependance on the people in AA or on one’s AA group limits our self-reliance and taking responsibility for our journey. Most members seem to grow into a well balanced relationship with their good sober lives and the programme that has made that possible for them, but there are some who don’t, and choose to limit themselves that way.
So many paths to take within the programme. It seems getting the right guidance is of paramount importance. Otherwise people who are relying on just their sick perceptions can turn in so many negative directions to their detriment. It’s sad to see how they react to that and the different ways they then choose to act out their frustrations and failure.
Fortunately that doesn’t happen to too many newcomers who want to actually take the steps. Most have enough intelligence to ask for the help they need, and know when they are ready to move into a less formal structure to maintain their sobriety successfully over the long term.
Aug 09, 2011 @ 20:49:58
Newcomers to AA are often quickly approached by over zealous AA members who wish to push (or enforce) their beliefs and will on them very quickly using slogans. This scares them away. In the Christian World this is termed a “Spiritual Bully” and there are Church groups who have made provisions to at least attempt to stop it. Unfortunately AA is not keeping up with the times and does not appear to be doing anything to prevent this. This is why many people and actual groups have been formed to try to prevent Spiritual Bullies in AA, and have left AA because of it.
When will AA start to take accountability for the safety of its members and put an end to the over zealous slogan repeaters that are scaring people away? Some people think that AA is very bad because of these members. How can we stop this?
Aug 09, 2011 @ 21:35:10
Trying to raise awareness of dangers and see some accountability has nothing to do with ‘what works’ for either the person posting or others. That argument misses the point entirely. The issue is not sobriety itself it is helping to stop victimization of vulnerable people looking for help and holding those predators accountable. The fax that was publicly released a couple years ago show AA is well aware of the issue but refuses to address it. The statement ‘safe “transitional” society in which to belong.’ is a lie. To make is safe again will take the work of members raising awareness and protecting the new comers.
Aug 09, 2011 @ 22:43:48
In my area, the local A.A. governing body has taken steps to remove members who display ‘predatory’ tendencies, so before you call anyone a ‘liar’ think about the validity of your own statements.
Aug 09, 2011 @ 23:26:45
That is a great idea of removing AA members who have “predatory” tendencies. I really wish processes like that were implemented world wide. Was this done at a Group or Intergroup level?
It would help the fellowship immeasurably if an Intergroup did it and it spread to other Intergroups. If it started at the Group level, hopefully it will spread to the Intergroup level and AA can be made safer and less people would leave because of Spiritual Bullies.
Aug 10, 2011 @ 00:57:26
It’s at the Intergroup level but the individual groups are responsible for ‘policing’ themselves, because according to the A.A. bylaws the individual groups retain autonomy, so if any changes are going to occur they have to happen at the group level because A.A.W.S. doesn’t have the authority to enforce their will on individual groups.
Aug 10, 2011 @ 15:35:12
While it is true that AAWS does not have the authority to enforce the AA bylaws present in the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions they do have the authority to modify the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions. In order to promote change and bring these bylaws into a more modern compliance of safety that churches and school systems are addressing, it actually has to start at the Intergroup level and brought up at Global AA conferences where these issues can become “conference approved” and put into action. The main problem with attempting to do this is that the Spiritual Bullies which are a small percentage of the fellowship usually have the biggest voice in these matters and will quickly repeat the “It works if you work it” slogan to stifle the changing of any guidelines that they have learned how to manipulate very well.
When you look at the number of people who attempt to join the fellowship that decline because of the actions of these Spiritual Bullies attempting to force their will on the newcomers, something needs to be changed. Even long time members of the fellowship will admit that AA doesn’t work for everyone and these people should be allowed to explore other alternatives to their Alcoholism problem without over zealous AA members contacting their family and friends in an attempt to force their will and AA on the prospect they have found. The members are not following the “attraction, not promotion” part of the AA bylaws of the fellowship.
AA would grow and the fellowship would prosper if more Intergroups would address the problems that have evolved in AA because of the over zealous members who are chasing newcomers away by their tactics of contacting friends and family of prospects in an attempt to shame them into joining. The Big Book cautions about this, but the Spiritual Bully is hiding behind the “take what you want and leave the rest” made up slogan to do what they want and do not follow the Steps or Traditions in doing so.
Aug 10, 2011 @ 16:03:18
The bylaws and the 12 & 12 are two separate entities, and they don’t have the authority to change the 12 & 12, when something is deemed conference approved it means it adheres to the principles set forth in the 12 & 12. Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to defend A.A. I’m just a Recovery Professional who believes that the Anonymous programs are a good tool for reaching recovery, however that said, I do not recommend the Anonymous programs for everybody. In my own opinion A.A. is a good starting point for some clients.
Aug 10, 2011 @ 16:55:10
I apologize, I wasn’t sure what you meant by bylaws. I went by the impression of the original 12 Steps devised in 1936 and the 12 traditions added in the early 1940′s with the publishing of the 12X12, not the actual book. I have not seen the actual bylaws of AAWS and was under the impression that they were not published, if you can point me to them it would be appreciated.
Being a recovery professional and seem to be very knowledgeable on the subject I do agree with not forcing programs on people it does not work for. I was at a meeting where a paid professional (working off the clock as a favor) addressed about 30 recovering Alcoholics. He was very knowledgeable and quite a talker. I did agree with everything he said except for one issue. I did not want to disrupt the meeting so I said nothing, but I am not sure if I should have remained quiet about it. He claimed that psychologists do not know how to treat Alcoholics and often just prescribe medication which doesn’t work. I realize that this doesn’t happen very often and in all groups, but he just informed 30 some people that medication wasn’t the answer and unfortunately one of these 30 may end up with a sponcee that they urge to go off their prescribed medication because of what he said.
Do you have any suggestions on the best way to handle this situation, or should I just ignore it because it will cause conflict in the meeting and hope it doesn’t end up with someone who wasn’t right for the program committing suicide?
Aug 14, 2011 @ 18:27:54
Robin, I think you could perhaps do more harm than you do good for alcoholics. Do you think you could see this perspective as a potential possibility? And if so, who might help you realize this?
Oct 14, 2011 @ 08:17:49
Robin-I am so glad to hear this.
Aug 09, 2011 @ 22:05:11
Unfortunately raising awareness of the dangers and lack of accountability does have a major part in “what works” for people who attempt to go to AA to solve their Alcoholism problem. AA appears to have a very abysmal rate of retention and this is because it scares people in need of help away from it because of the Spiritual Bullies it produces that they have not kept up with the current times like churches or schools have.
Depending upon where you get your information from and how it is collected, AA only has a 5%-30% retention rate and between 1.2-2 million members. Even using the high retention rate of 30% and the low membership of 1.2 million, that wold mean that would mean that 840,000 people leave the fellowship every year. The overzealous AA member who really is harming the reputation of AA will quickly quote a slogan and state, “They weren’t real Alcoholics” or they ended up in “Jails, Institutions or Death.”
The only requirement for membership in AA is a desire to stop drinking. These people come to AA for help and are turned away from the fellowship by the over zealous Spiritual Bullies of AA who love to quote the “Take what you want and leave the rest” made up slogan that suits their purpose. If you get rid of the AA slogan quoting Spiritual Bullies in AA many more people would get the help they need. The low number I just quoted of 840,000 people a year which are turned away by these Spiritual Bullies is a very generous number. A Spiritual Bully in AA will attempt to dispute this number, but it was derived from a 30% retention rate which is very high by many estimates and a total fellowship of 1.2 million people is very low by many estimates. This means 70% percent of 1.2 million which is 840,000. It is abysmal that the fellowship would turn their backs on this number of people because of the very low percentage of Spiritual Bullies they allow to stay in the fellowship and harm its reputation.
Aug 10, 2011 @ 00:16:15
J.Harris-
Those are impressive numbers and your deep analysis of them indicate you’re giving this problem a lot of your attention.
You say if AA removes the small percentage of SBs that they are allowing to stay in the fellowship then the 840,000 who are turned away by them each year will then stay in AA and get the help they need because no one will be quoting made up slogans to them.
Do you have any ideas regarding how they might effectively remove these SBs?
Your desire to see AA grow and be of maximum effectiveness to those seeking a spiritual way of life to relieve their alcohol addiction is laudable. Keep it up, as even the best things can be improved upon.
It’s refreshing to see such positive concern for the well-being of the programme. Too often there are strange and twisted personalities cropping up on these discussions who try to appear sincerely interested in making AA more available and effective but are in fact, deceptive boors more interested in tearing down what they haven’t the capacity to fathom, despite their efforts to present themselves as otherwise.
It’s clear enough to all what’s going on when a little flock of the uninvolved yet highly opinionated invade discussions among AAs regarding different facets of our programme. The conversations we’d like to have about the actual material gets sidetracked and they become predictable and boring, unable to actually engage in conversations other than spouting the usual slogans in their over zealous fashion.
Unspiritual Bullys, as you might call them. How would you suggest we not allow them to stay and by quoting their mindless slogans scare people from getting the help they need?
Aug 10, 2011 @ 02:15:16
Factisimo -
That actually is a very good question and I am not sure because of the resistance to change that some of the AA members have. I do know that Al-Anon was started by Bill Wilson’s wife and that Alateen sprung from it. In Alateen they have accountability and processes and procedures in place because they are forced to in the US at least by laws. The Sponsors come from Al-Anon and must have a background check and they are carefully checked because of the fact they are working with very vulnerable teens. Many people who enter the rooms of AA are also very vulnerable. The age of majority in the US is 18 in, I believe all of the states. Because of the vulnerability of the people entering the program, perhaps something using same type of laws should be explored. Unfortunately the Spiritual Bullies of AA usually start reciting slogans and are not open to any type of civil discussion which makes it hard to have an open discussion about this type of thing.
When an Alcoholic goes to Rehab, in the US anyway, they must by law be told that everything they say is confidential, unless it has to do with the harm to themselves or another human being. They are governed by law to do this or they may loose their license or even be jailed. The Sponsor/Sponcee relationship should be the same way. Unfortunately it is not in some areas which can be shown by the murder of Danita Brown in Lewiston Maine by AA member Bob Ryder who told his AA Sonsor about it and even showed him the body. Ryders AA Sponsor waited over 2 weeks to notify the police because of the Anonymity of AA present in the 12X12 which is recited at most meetings. This should not have taken that long. A Spiritual Bully will argue that this is a one time or not very often occurrence, but news reports do show this incidents like this happening every few years. Unfortunately because of the strength of some of the fellowship who try to enforce Anonymity in the cases of murder or sexual assault many never make the papers to warn people that things like this do happen. Sponsors act as therapist/councilors to Sponcees and they should be subject to the same laws. This is only common sense to protect other members in the fellowship and society in general, but some AA members start reciting slogans and refuse to talk about it in a serious and civil manner.
Aug 10, 2011 @ 16:52:56
Robin-
I am not real sure what a ‘Recovery Professional’ is. The one that I was forced to deal with eagerly broke several laws, such as HIPAA, which was covered up by KSAAP (Kansas Association of Addiction Professionals) The entire ‘investigation’ consisted of one phone call in which they accused me of lying. This was strange since ALL evidence was documented, and now the original counselor has even refused to accept certified mail form me. This was a case involving Humana/CorpHealth/LifeSynch and it is my intention to publish all of the information pertaining to my case as I feel it will have tremendous appelate value to all those fighting forced and coerced participation and conversion to the AA faith.
People should be very wary of ‘Recovery Professionals’ as not only is licensing optional in most states, health insurance carriers are bilked as if someone where dealing with a real health professional rather than most counselors who are merely street evangelists of the AA faith.
Most of the two hatters I have dealt with over the years are utterly unemployable outside the make believe world of recovery. It is time for insurance companies to stop paying for unproven, superstitious, religious folklore, provided by uninformed and unqualified people, masquarading as real health care professionals.
The Sinclair Method in conjunction with the drug Naltrexone has a 78% verifiable success rate, yet the recovery industry cartel continues to discourage and downplay the method as it does not promote their industry or theology.
Aug 10, 2011 @ 20:03:50
You seem very ready to ‘abuse’ people without knowing their certifications, this previous conversation was with JR Harris. The reason nobody wants to talk to you is that you’ve decided that the best way to fight abuse is with abuse.
Aug 10, 2011 @ 20:52:55
It is true that two wrongs do not make a right but I can sense that the AA program did not work for this gentlemen. I have to wonder why the fellowship does not embrace these people and learn from them. They should be listened to so that it can be better understood how to fix the sections that do not work for everyone and change them to strengthen the fellowship. Unfortunately it is true that many people who feel they have been harmed by AA do end up using the same tactics as the Spiritual Bullies of AA used against them. This is only human nature and should be accommodated for.
I for one would like to hear the reasons that this gentlemen believes the fellowship failed him, so that I may learn incite into how to help prevent them from happening to other prospects for Alcoholics Anonymous and grow the fellowship with people that benefit from it.
Aug 10, 2011 @ 19:06:38
DeC
I’m not a fan of rehab businesses for many reasons, but this is the first I’ve heard of a ‘recovery industry cartel’.
Are you sure that entity exists? Looking under ‘recovery industry cartel’ I could only locate links to towing business associations.
Could you direct me to their website? Surely you would have that, given your strong feelings regarding the ‘recovery industry cartel’. This ability to rant at length against apparently unreal entities also may provide some insight as to why the authorities took you for a liar in the one investigative phone call you mentioned.
Anyway, best of luck with your efforts against all your enemies. On the plus side, at least the ‘recovery industry cartel’ is most unlikely to fight back at all. I wager you’ll win your battle against it someday..
Aug 10, 2011 @ 20:25:55
I believe that the “‘recovery industry cartel” is a euphemism for the prevalence of the 12 Step Addiction Recovery Model that is extremely high compared to other types of Addiction Recovery. Oftentimes people will use euphemisms to express overall ideas and unfortunately sometimes not everyone will understand the actual meanings. Cartels are notorious for the manipulation of the markets they attempt to control by making a monopoly out of their services by quickly attacking and destroying any new entrants into the market. This is can be considered bad because it eliminates alternatives and the free markets that democracy is designed to promote.
I can see this being done by some members of the fellowship when they insist that AA is the only thing that works and they quickly use a memorized made up slogan that is not part of the original Big Book or 12X12. They do not mean it in a harmful way, but they are not thinking out their actions before they speak and are using unoriginal defenses to the change of AA structure set up by Spiritual Bullies in AA who are using these slogans to control its path. This may be fine to many people, except for the ones that AA does not work for, and I believe that we all know that AA doesn’t work for everyone. It would be nice if AA did work for everyone, then we wouldn’t see as many tragedies in AA as we do. Unfortunately the people that need something else that works for them are usually quickly quieted down and not allowed to speak there opinions which does not give the other people in AA a chance to realize that if they find a prospect for AA that the program does not work for they should suggest something else. Doing this could save many lives that fail in the program because it is not right for them and strengthen the fellowship for the people that it does work for. To use a slogan, this would be a “win win” situation.
Aug 10, 2011 @ 23:53:14
I don’t know, J. Personally, I think he’s just against organized towing companies. Rehab programs are in stiff competition with each other for patients to fill their beds and are unlikely to form any sort of cartel.
Quite a variety out there…aversion treatment, short term detox & go, 6 month rehabilitation live-in, posh and cushy 1st class 5 star jobs, skid row level public funded flops, vitamin treatment programs, church-run programs by the many different religions, drug substitution plans, and many more. The Scientologists have developed a business model that is interesting. They run crappy and unsanitary places until they are closed down, then they rename themselves and reopen up again as often as they need to. Quite a racket.
So far though, no one I’ve heard of wants to put together a harm reduction rehab. That would be a real madhouse. Picture 40-50 half-drunk alcoholics prevented by authorities from getting ‘done’. They would light up the night sky.
Aug 11, 2011 @ 00:52:03
I do believe that in Canada (I think it was Canada) that they have opened up a few so-called “wet houses” where they allow the participants to drink while attempting to treat them. Personally I do not think this is a good idea, but it does appear to at least prolong the life of these poor souls for a while anyway. Some even appear to break out of the cycle of Alcoholism and become good citizens. This is a Grey area that I am on the fence about, but if it saves even one life from Alcoholism and perhaps prolongs precious life for a while longer for a few more it is still better than just letting people die from Alcoholism as quickly as possible. I don’t believe that the fellowship should interfere with these new attempts at saving or prolonging life. By stating my like or dislike of these attempts I would also be breaking Tradition 12, “Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issue….” since this topic is definitely not an AA issue with the fellowship, it is an outside issue.
Aug 11, 2011 @ 01:01:59
Ooops, Sorry I meant Tradition 10 not Tradition 12. I didn’t realize until I hit the post button.
10. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy.
Aug 11, 2011 @ 13:39:07
You have interesting friends in that blog that you linked to, DeC. http://stinkin-thinkin.com/ The lead post today is poking fun at a man who was ran down by a drunk driver and left partially blinded and disabled.
Only my opinion, but if they are fighting hard to stop their madness then they need to fight much harder. Viciousness isn’t funny, even when it’s written with more wit than that post.
I’m sorry I read that, it really is stomach-turning. I don’t think I’m about to read any more of your links.
Aug 11, 2011 @ 16:40:51
Perception is everything when dealing with Alcohol and Alcoholism. I believe that opening your mind and not judging other people is key to finding what your Spiritual path should be, members of the fellowship should make sure that their side of the street is clean and not judge others as stated in the Big Book.
Everyone was put on this earth for a reason and purpose. Things happen for a reason and the opinions of people that feel they have been harmed by the fellowship should be interpreted as a sign that something has to change. We can ignore those who do not appreciate the fellowship, or we can learn from it.
As for other peoples opinions on a subject such as the tragic harm done to a person because of Alcoholism, they must always be taken with a grain of salt. Some people use these actions to make statements about what they believe.
I believe that in this case what is being discussed is the fact that this tragedy will be used by some in the fellowship to further it by relating this DUI story in an attempt to bring others into the fellowship. It is true that in the eyes of people who believe they have been harmed by the members in AA, they may not express these actions in the best way, but they do this for some reason. While members the fellowship should be keeping their own side of the street clean, unfortunately some times lash out against those who point out (perhaps not in the best way) something that the non believers see as odd or strange behavior. It may be better to attempt to find out why offensive posts were made and perhaps members of the fellowship offended by them should do a Step 4 or even 5 and see if there is even a shred of truth in them and adapt accordingly if they are found. When reading these posts it should be remembered that anger and denial may sneak into a member of the fellowship, but if controlled correctly it can become a learning experience.
Aug 14, 2011 @ 17:49:24
Basically, the idea of a program of action illustrates that self esteem comes from esteemable acts involving other people. Self respect parallells respectful acts towards other people, places and things. This idea of building self esteem for ourselves independantly might somehow be related to ‘taking pride’ to resolve our problems which every spiritual wisdom cautions against. Does not this feigned so called self esteem ultimately create narcism in people? I see it this way. If AA and the meetings were treated only as a ‘transitional society’ as you suggest how would it keep going if everyone felt this way? Would it become a seasonal event…and for a new person, unless you sobered up at right time you were out of luck for having the AA society help! What is wrong with a day at a time? what is wrong with ‘keep coming back’? they have been doing it in Catholic (and other) churches for thousands of years. People would not dream of getting to a place in the christian, buddhist or muslim religions where they felt they were ‘cured’ or healed or ready for transition into a world where they would no longer need their fellowship. This would be absurd. This is where gifts are shared…around others that are just like us. For fun and for free. Whethor a person likes it or not…AA member, counselor or who ever…AA has been declared the largest spiritual movement of the 21st century by many scholars. I don’t personally belive or call AA a religion but I do believe in the community of people and have experienced the miracle of AA. I will continue to go I am sure. Besides, I once felt as if I needed to become more excellent and evolve away from AA (I felt as if I could do a little better with my life and contribute more in other areas) I was successful in doing so…until I drank. I am happy to be back 12 years sober now and regulary attending meetings for all those 12 years. We have a good solid sober coummnity here in Southern California where there is no need for ‘graduation’ This is where it is at. If you don’t feel that way about your involvement…gratitude for AA is a good exercise. Maybe get more involved?! It is possible to become distracted by involvement in the welfare of others and getting miraculously better…without looking at yourself at all! Thank you for letting me share. -LGR
Aug 16, 2011 @ 16:44:36
WOW you have some big resentment going on . your lack of insight is astonishing. This is a horrible site. lots of love. Eve 19 years sober
Aug 16, 2011 @ 18:39:21
eve – I realize that you did not mean it, but your statement was very full of anger and hurtful. If Alcoholics Anonymous is to grow and prosper, its members should not lash out at people who have different views and ideas about the program. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and you should be keeping your side of the street clean and not taking other peoples inventories. These types of ideas should be kept between a sponsor and sponcee in the spiritual fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous and not on an open blog. Please follow Tradition 10,”Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy.”
AA members who continually make derogatory comments about people who are expressing their disappointments in what they view as a failure in the program are the reason that AA membership is not much higher than it is. AA members should be listening to them and learning what the perceived problem is and then taking their own inventory to determine if they are at fault. Please be very wary of the AA members who tell you that “you can take what you want and leave the rest” that is not in the Big Book and was devised by AA members who have a low Spiritual Awakening.
Aug 16, 2011 @ 20:06:30
JR,
With all due respect, you have not one clue about Eve. I don’t have a clue about her either, or you (other than what you have written in your many learned posts above).
How do you know Eve didn’t mean it? How do you know she is a member of AA and is espousing her view based upon inculcation into that (or any) program of sobriety? The fact is that unless you know Eve personally, you don’t know her at all. We all need to take only our own inventory, every day. That includes you (I say at the risk of possibly taking your inventory, I know) and me.
As the copy editor at ITR Addictions Magazine (and I am speaking only for myself here), I have read this thread with displeasure on a daily basis as it has devolved into the tempest in a teapot it has become.
It seems as if each position is fortified and that there will never be a break-through, an “A-Ha!” moment for any side. IMHO, additional back-and-forth will serve no purpose but mental gymnastics or continued ethuggery (of which I am not accusing you JR).
RobinH wrote a great post about self-esteem, the point of which seems to have been all but lost in the 36 comments prior to this one. How ironic is it that a post about self-esteem has engendered such a discussion?
Aug 16, 2011 @ 23:41:17
JeffMZ – points conceded. Sometimes it is hard to take a neutral stance on any subject and I did jump to conclusions when I read the resentment trigger word often used against anyone that voices any displeasure at the AA program. I read eve’s post as someone who is still going to AA, but was concerned about the self-esteem aspect of the program in her case and was voicing her opinion. She is still an AA member and I took it as an attack on her self-esteem which is what this topic is about. I apologize for jumping to conclusions, I should not have.
Aug 17, 2011 @ 12:46:37
Well, after reading all of this, I must say….. all of this is a matter of perspective. Just because you have one doesn’t mean it’s accurate. Doing interviews, collecting data to substantiate a point really doesn’t hold a lot of weight when it comes down to these simple facts. The AA organization is geared to address the problem of ALCOHOLISM. It is not a cure for violent, or predatory behavior. The idea of ALOHOLISM as a disease, or mental illness is realistic for society, if not then there would be no need to have the “professionals”, institutions, agencies, ect. that are designed to “treat” the “illness”. And there would be no need for the multi billion dollar industry that it is. When the precious funds for individuals in treatment run out, they have a place to go, where they can choose to recover of their own free will.
Aug 17, 2011 @ 13:55:14
Unfortunately this thread appears to have gone off topic slightly. This is about self esteem. While it may be true that some AA members have some very horrible stories of crimes committed at or around AA meetings, how can AA help the Alcoholic who feels low self esteem because of these crimes and the reporting of them?
Aug 17, 2011 @ 16:14:45
I do agree with Rhonda Mc that AA should only be addressing the problem of Alcoholism and not the other problems in society. On the 2009 Tax form 990 which was signed by Donald Meurer it states:
“THE GENERAL SERVICE BOARD OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, INC. SERVES AS THE CUSTODIAN OF A.A. TRADITIONS AND FUNDS. IT ACTS FOR THE SOCIETY IN MATTERS OF NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL SCOPE TO FURTHER THE PURPOSE OF THE MOVEMENT, WHICH IS THE REHABILITATION OF PERSONS SUFFERING FROM ALCOHOLISM AND ITS ATTENDANT PROBLEMS.”
Because of the legal document signed by Donald Meurer as the legal agent of corporate AA guidance, I believe that AA is acting as a Rehabilitation agent for Alcoholism as well as the rehabilitation of self esteem which is an attendant problem. It is nice to know that AA has legal grounds and a corporation to protect them.
Dec 22, 2011 @ 15:23:48
I like this weblog very much so much wonderful info.
Feb 08, 2012 @ 20:38:26
Hey. I clearly required to actually leave a nice swift statement and let you learn that in fact I’ve been following your wordpress blog for quite some time. Keep up the very good work and I will be returning again another time relatively soon.
May 12, 2012 @ 10:12:33
Nice post at Self-Esteem, Revisited. I was checking continuously this blog and I am impressed! Very helpful info specifically the last part
I care for such info a lot. I was looking for this particular info for a long time. Thank you and good luck.